This idea definitely has merit. I worked in fast food/pizza joints from age 14 to 17 and learned a lot about dealing with people of all socioeconomic backgrounds.
Bussed tables at a 5 star restaurant and it almost made me a Marxist.
One of the ways I judge people is how they treat the waitstaff.
ARGH. As much as Thomas has a point, and as someone who worked a number of service and customer service jobs in my misspent youth, and who has remarked more than once that society would be greatly improved if everyone toiled in a customer facing position at least once in their lives (I ABSOLUTELY judge people for the way they speak to people in service positions), I can't help but put my political policy and strategy hat on to point out that however appealing this idea is, it's also unworkable.
The people that are most in favour of a military or non military focused national service scheme are always those who will never be required to complete it. If you recall Rishi Sunak floated the idea of a national service to court the votes of the older and more well off, and was savagely mocked by those who would be required to complete it, and lost the election in a landslide anyway.
The one group that never gets consulted on this, and quite conspicuously never calls for it despite the increasing difficulty with recruiting people, is the military. They HATE national service. There is no benefit to the armed forces in having a bunch of people who would otherwise never set foot in a recruiting office, never mind a military base, being forced to serve and taking up valuable training time, equipment, resources etc, only to fuck off after 12 months and the cycle beginning again.
All the organisations that y'all have listed as being worthy recipients of donated time would have the same problem. Hospitals, aged care facilities, rehab facilities etc have no more need to be finishing schools for the uncouth than the military does, especially when by doing so they'd be putting our most vulnerable into the hands of those least qualified and mentally and emotionally equipped to look after them, all in the name of teaching rude cunts some manners and humility.
While we might assume that the retail and hospitality giants might welcome a flood of unpaid or underpaid minions to exploit, having worked for one (Bunnings) and am currently working for another (Endeavour Group) I can attest that this model of free or cheap labour wouldn't fit their cultural or strategic goals, however much public perception of them would indicate otherwise. These places have no trouble finding staff who'll half arse their job and stick around for 6 or 12 months, they certainly don't need a government mandated national service to funnel more people to them. What they desperately want, and struggle to find, is people who will embrace the job and commit to doing it properly for years on end (and their internal cultures are geared toward facilitating). Those are not the people who would benefit from being forced into service positions and discovering the perspective of being on the receiving end of other people's bullshit.
Every time national service of some kind gets put forward as a solution to society's ills, it's predicated on the assumption that the people who need to learn manners, humility, and the perspectives of others either less fortunate or at the least in different tax brackets to them, are open to learning these lessons, will take them on board, and not come up with increasingly creative ways to get out of national service and leave the service to the poor, vulnerable and otherwise not well connected to complete. Looking at Mr "bone spurs" president elect in the US for one.
At the risk of being shouted down as a socialist hippy, we will never solve society's ills by dragging the privileged down to temporarily experience the trials of the unprivileged. We can only solve society's ills by ensuring the unprivileged are lifted out of their social poverty by things like universal basic services - genuine universal healthcare, free education, a living wage. A floor, if you will, that no one should fall through.
And yes, you would be correct in arguing that this is as impossible and unfeasible as a national service, that those who would be most in favour of it are the ones that would benefit the most from it, vs the ones who would convince themselves, and be convinced by opportunistic, grasping politicians, that they would be the ones "paying" for all this, but the big difference between this and a national service is that this, if implemented, would actually achieve measurable, positive outcomes and benefit the nation. Unlike a national service that sounds great on paper for those who would not be required to complete it, and a nightmare for the institutions that would be required to implement it, and the disaffected yoof of the country who would be required to serve in it. Sorry.
Anyway, vote 1 for the Australian Democrats in 2025 to get this sort of fun and uplifting realpolitik analysis back in the Senate 😇 😂
CRACKED did a good piece back when it was good called “Five Jobs Everyone Should Do” and dishpig was the top of the list, for the reason you describe. Teaches you how to just put your head down and slog through. Here’s a big pile of dirty dishes. The only way to get to the end of it is to set to and wash them. There are no hacks, or One Weird Tricks, or shortcuts because you know the boss’ son. There’s just the work. All done? Here’s another pile of dirty dishes.
Since we’re on it, there’s another interesting angle on a mandatory service that sticks in my mind from many years ago, a casual remark by a German (iirc) talking about their service obligations. They thought that the usual “get a sergeant in their face, knock some respect into ‘em” line was bullshit, but the real bonus from service that nobody talked about was how it mixed people from all parts of the country and all levels of the community together as equals. To transfer their point to Australia, you might get a crew with a barrister’s son from the Northern Beaches, a kid from a Tasmanian fishing town, a truckie’s son from rural South Australia, a Byron hipster headed for the arts circuit, a Canberra kid from a white-collar family, all sharing a barracks and mixing in together.
They thought the healthiest and most positive aspect of that social time was the way these people would all go back to their lives having seen the country through a few other pairs of eyes. Down the years they were less likely to see someone unlike themselves and immediately think “ugh, fuckin’ big-city wanker/redneck mouthbreather/dirty reffo/racist Skip/whatever”, and in with a chance of thinking “oh, I did my Service with someone from that town, met some of his mates, they’re alright”.
I was in an almost argument with friends one night talking about how women are disadvantaged superannuation wise because of maternity leave and the traditional role of caring for kids/parents etc and that is part of why women have small super totals and the men in their lives should contribute. But then i went even further and said everyone in society could even it out a bit by taking 1 yr (or the maternity equiv) doing public service. Doesnt have to be military, could be volunteering in a soup kitchen, or building paths with the NPWS etc but you have to do it in a block not in drips. And you get paid under the public award or whatever. I was shouted down as a wild socialist.
But i agree - i did a lot of crappy (literally) jobs during uni and did a lot of time behind a bar dealing with some of the worst (and the best) of humanity has to offer. I've made the kids do it too.
Any entry level job should do it, so you can experience actually working for a solid 8 hours with minimal breaks whilst on your feet.
Back in the ancient days at iiNet, all new hires, regardless of position, had to do 1 week on the phones in support or sales. I'd say that was a good policy.
Also, any customer facing role teaches you how to deal with people and you can tell a lot of folk have never had that opportunity.
Two tours of duty for me. 91-92 in a cafe and 96-97 in a place that rhymes with shizza futt.
Mainly it always surprises me when people don't know how to wipe down a table or make a meal so that everything is ready at the same time. Oh, and how to not be a dick to service staff.
I consider my year and a half as a customer service numpty in the call centre for a major bank to be the functional equivalent. This was right in the middle of the period where the banks had temporarily dropped the pretence of caring about any customer who wasn't worth a at least a mil. They were closing branches all over the place. I recall with great fondness the time they arbitrarily decided to change the payment period on credit cards from 25 days to 14 days.
Seriously though amongst several useful 'life lessons' it taught a middle class boy that there were plenty of people who live pay check to pay check, for whom even a small unexpected expense was a existential crisis. And that his employer would charge said people a $30 over draft fee when they tried to withdraw $20 and they only had $10 in their account. And that was supposedly OK.
This idea definitely has merit. I worked in fast food/pizza joints from age 14 to 17 and learned a lot about dealing with people of all socioeconomic backgrounds.
Bussed tables at a 5 star restaurant and it almost made me a Marxist.
One of the ways I judge people is how they treat the waitstaff.
Tell Thomas to keep thinking.
or working as nursing aid/care worker, or similar positive roll.
ARGH. As much as Thomas has a point, and as someone who worked a number of service and customer service jobs in my misspent youth, and who has remarked more than once that society would be greatly improved if everyone toiled in a customer facing position at least once in their lives (I ABSOLUTELY judge people for the way they speak to people in service positions), I can't help but put my political policy and strategy hat on to point out that however appealing this idea is, it's also unworkable.
The people that are most in favour of a military or non military focused national service scheme are always those who will never be required to complete it. If you recall Rishi Sunak floated the idea of a national service to court the votes of the older and more well off, and was savagely mocked by those who would be required to complete it, and lost the election in a landslide anyway.
The one group that never gets consulted on this, and quite conspicuously never calls for it despite the increasing difficulty with recruiting people, is the military. They HATE national service. There is no benefit to the armed forces in having a bunch of people who would otherwise never set foot in a recruiting office, never mind a military base, being forced to serve and taking up valuable training time, equipment, resources etc, only to fuck off after 12 months and the cycle beginning again.
All the organisations that y'all have listed as being worthy recipients of donated time would have the same problem. Hospitals, aged care facilities, rehab facilities etc have no more need to be finishing schools for the uncouth than the military does, especially when by doing so they'd be putting our most vulnerable into the hands of those least qualified and mentally and emotionally equipped to look after them, all in the name of teaching rude cunts some manners and humility.
While we might assume that the retail and hospitality giants might welcome a flood of unpaid or underpaid minions to exploit, having worked for one (Bunnings) and am currently working for another (Endeavour Group) I can attest that this model of free or cheap labour wouldn't fit their cultural or strategic goals, however much public perception of them would indicate otherwise. These places have no trouble finding staff who'll half arse their job and stick around for 6 or 12 months, they certainly don't need a government mandated national service to funnel more people to them. What they desperately want, and struggle to find, is people who will embrace the job and commit to doing it properly for years on end (and their internal cultures are geared toward facilitating). Those are not the people who would benefit from being forced into service positions and discovering the perspective of being on the receiving end of other people's bullshit.
Every time national service of some kind gets put forward as a solution to society's ills, it's predicated on the assumption that the people who need to learn manners, humility, and the perspectives of others either less fortunate or at the least in different tax brackets to them, are open to learning these lessons, will take them on board, and not come up with increasingly creative ways to get out of national service and leave the service to the poor, vulnerable and otherwise not well connected to complete. Looking at Mr "bone spurs" president elect in the US for one.
At the risk of being shouted down as a socialist hippy, we will never solve society's ills by dragging the privileged down to temporarily experience the trials of the unprivileged. We can only solve society's ills by ensuring the unprivileged are lifted out of their social poverty by things like universal basic services - genuine universal healthcare, free education, a living wage. A floor, if you will, that no one should fall through.
And yes, you would be correct in arguing that this is as impossible and unfeasible as a national service, that those who would be most in favour of it are the ones that would benefit the most from it, vs the ones who would convince themselves, and be convinced by opportunistic, grasping politicians, that they would be the ones "paying" for all this, but the big difference between this and a national service is that this, if implemented, would actually achieve measurable, positive outcomes and benefit the nation. Unlike a national service that sounds great on paper for those who would not be required to complete it, and a nightmare for the institutions that would be required to implement it, and the disaffected yoof of the country who would be required to serve in it. Sorry.
Anyway, vote 1 for the Australian Democrats in 2025 to get this sort of fun and uplifting realpolitik analysis back in the Senate 😇 😂
I’ll be somewhat persuaded as to the efficacy of the Thomas Plan if I hear he’s started refilling the cold water bottles at home.
CRACKED did a good piece back when it was good called “Five Jobs Everyone Should Do” and dishpig was the top of the list, for the reason you describe. Teaches you how to just put your head down and slog through. Here’s a big pile of dirty dishes. The only way to get to the end of it is to set to and wash them. There are no hacks, or One Weird Tricks, or shortcuts because you know the boss’ son. There’s just the work. All done? Here’s another pile of dirty dishes.
Since we’re on it, there’s another interesting angle on a mandatory service that sticks in my mind from many years ago, a casual remark by a German (iirc) talking about their service obligations. They thought that the usual “get a sergeant in their face, knock some respect into ‘em” line was bullshit, but the real bonus from service that nobody talked about was how it mixed people from all parts of the country and all levels of the community together as equals. To transfer their point to Australia, you might get a crew with a barrister’s son from the Northern Beaches, a kid from a Tasmanian fishing town, a truckie’s son from rural South Australia, a Byron hipster headed for the arts circuit, a Canberra kid from a white-collar family, all sharing a barracks and mixing in together.
They thought the healthiest and most positive aspect of that social time was the way these people would all go back to their lives having seen the country through a few other pairs of eyes. Down the years they were less likely to see someone unlike themselves and immediately think “ugh, fuckin’ big-city wanker/redneck mouthbreather/dirty reffo/racist Skip/whatever”, and in with a chance of thinking “oh, I did my Service with someone from that town, met some of his mates, they’re alright”.
There’s a few people in Canberra who could have done with this in their youth, or even tomorrow.
But I agree with the thought in general. It would definitely make for nicer people and a much better community. There might even be community.
Few people like this everywhere, I reckon. And as one of the Canberra folks, I can agree, the bubble is real to a certain extent.
I was in an almost argument with friends one night talking about how women are disadvantaged superannuation wise because of maternity leave and the traditional role of caring for kids/parents etc and that is part of why women have small super totals and the men in their lives should contribute. But then i went even further and said everyone in society could even it out a bit by taking 1 yr (or the maternity equiv) doing public service. Doesnt have to be military, could be volunteering in a soup kitchen, or building paths with the NPWS etc but you have to do it in a block not in drips. And you get paid under the public award or whatever. I was shouted down as a wild socialist.
But i agree - i did a lot of crappy (literally) jobs during uni and did a lot of time behind a bar dealing with some of the worst (and the best) of humanity has to offer. I've made the kids do it too.
Any entry level job should do it, so you can experience actually working for a solid 8 hours with minimal breaks whilst on your feet.
Back in the ancient days at iiNet, all new hires, regardless of position, had to do 1 week on the phones in support or sales. I'd say that was a good policy.
Also, any customer facing role teaches you how to deal with people and you can tell a lot of folk have never had that opportunity.
Two tours of duty for me. 91-92 in a cafe and 96-97 in a place that rhymes with shizza futt.
Mainly it always surprises me when people don't know how to wipe down a table or make a meal so that everything is ready at the same time. Oh, and how to not be a dick to service staff.
I consider my year and a half as a customer service numpty in the call centre for a major bank to be the functional equivalent. This was right in the middle of the period where the banks had temporarily dropped the pretence of caring about any customer who wasn't worth a at least a mil. They were closing branches all over the place. I recall with great fondness the time they arbitrarily decided to change the payment period on credit cards from 25 days to 14 days.
Seriously though amongst several useful 'life lessons' it taught a middle class boy that there were plenty of people who live pay check to pay check, for whom even a small unexpected expense was a existential crisis. And that his employer would charge said people a $30 over draft fee when they tried to withdraw $20 and they only had $10 in their account. And that was supposedly OK.